E3. Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them

Join host Victoria Jenner on an exciting journey to St Mary's in Edlesborough, a magnificent church nestled in the stunning Dunstable Downs countryside. Discover the allure of Victorian art and architecture, as Victoria visits a colourful exhibition at the Ashmolean Museum.

But that's not all - get ready for a dose of fantasy and adventure as we uncover the real and mythical animals surrounding St Mary's. From chalk lions, medieval rabbit warrens to bizarre misericords showing a mermaid suckling a lion, there's no telling what she'll discover! Don't miss this immersive and enchanting trip back to Victorian England on our podcast.

If you would like to make some memories, why not give champing a try? For everything you need to know about Champing™ visit: https://champing.co.uk/

The champing season happens in those warmer months, between March and October, so book now.  

Nights in the Nave has been written and produced by me: Victoria Jenner. My guests have been Natasha Podro and her son, Kit, and special thanks goes to: Fiona Silk who runs ‘Champing’, our champing assistants and Dr Madeline Hewitson and Dr Tea Ghigo from the Ashmolean Museum, University of Oxford. Sound recording was managed by Leigh-Anne Beattie. Music by Nick Varey and design by George Allen. 

This is a Churches Conservation Trust podcast.

Follow Victoria Jenner on instagram for more historic adventures: @victoriajenner_history

Chapters

• 0:00 Fantastic beasts and where to find them
• 2:27 A Colour Revolution
• 12:04 Looking for medieval rabbit warrens with a Goldie
• 16:42 Welcome to St Mary’s Church in Edlesborough
• 20:39 Meet our Guest: Natasha Podro!
• 35:04 Angels in the wall
• 46:36 Victorian-style hot chocolate
• 49:38 Never tickle a sleeping dragon
• 52:35 Credits

Transcript

Oh... Hey, hey. Oh, look, he's an owl, a beautiful owl like Hedwig.
And a very, very weird. Something between a monkey and a... He looks and he looks a bit like a monkey. But then stuff here, there's dragons and eagles. There's more. Look, there's a that's a good. That's a... is that a goat? That's a goat or hairy man. No, that's a goa!. I think that's he's got horns, ears and then horns. Yeah.

Welcome to the Champing podcast. You may be thinking, And what sort of word is that? To which I answer it is a combination of the word church and camping, and it amuses me no end. Camping is a unique concept of camping overnight in historic churches, brought to the world by the brilliant Churches Conservation Trust, the national charity protecting redundant churches at risk.

Over 10,000 of happy campers have stayed in their churches that are dotted all over England. So in this podcast series, we embark on our very own sleepover, but with a twist. In this episode, I travel to Saint Mary's Church, perched atop the isolated chalk hill of the Vale of Aylesbury that proudly stands as a powerful monument in the Dunstable Downs countryside.

We delight in the colour of the Victorian period. In this episode, explore a new exhibition at the Ashmolean Museum and discover why the Victorians were so captivated by medieval art and architecture. But not only this. The church is surrounded by both real and fancy animals. Only a stone's throw away is Whipsnade Zoo, where they care for over 10,000 animals.

Saint Mary's sits in this beautiful area of natural beauty which is the Dunstable Downs. So join me as I hunt for medieval rabbits, warrens, chalk lions and fantastical creatures particularly bonkers is the mermaid suckling a lion and the two headed beast with fierce schools. So let's travel back to Victorian England.

It's lovely to see you. Lovely to see you, too. Thank you for having me. Of course. Yeah. Shall we go in and see the exhibition? Absolutely. I'm very excited. It's very colourful. All right. Doctor Maddie Hewitson is exhibition researcher for the new exhibition Colour Revolution Victorian Art, Fashion and Design, which runs from September 2023 to February 2024.

We are meeting in the hub of the exhibition space. Great. So we've just walked into a very dark and grimy London scene. So is this ultimately what the exhibition is hoping to achieve? Is it challenging and dispelling this pre-concert notion that Victorian London was very grimy and dark? Absolutely. We want to start with a dark place that played up to this myth that the 19th century was indeed monochrome, grimy, industrial, polluted, and this is very much brought about by many of the things we associate with this period.

So Queen Victoria, for example, goes into mourning after the death of Prince Albert in 1861, wearing black mourning clothes and never emerges. Over 60 years, she's wearing black clothing. Or you have, of course, black and white photography, which really distorts our view of the 19th century. So they may well have been wearing very colourful things, but what we see in the photographs from that period are solely black and white images.

And of course, we associate the Victorian era with the great moment of industrialisation. But of course, what that brought along with it was pollution was grimy, industrial urban centers. So we've got quotes by Charles Dickens and images, black and white images by Gustav Dore showing the slums of London and just how cramped and close these quarters were. But from this stereotypical image, we want to bring you into this world of colour and in show that, in fact, the 19th century was this great moment for thinking about the colour, the innovations and the change in attitudes during this period.

 That's amazing. And as I peep into the other gallery, I can see that we've we've already got this a blast of colour inviting you in. So should we go in, have a look and get to the colourful part. So which would you say is your favorite object? Oh, so I think we come from a kind of initial room which deals with the writer and critic John Ruskin, and he was one of the first Victorian thinkers which really asks people to think about and love colour in this whole new way.

 So before it had been seen as kind of secondary colour to the idea of design or design form. And he said, no. In fact, colour is a gift from God, and colour is sacred in its nature. And one of the periods, the historical periods that he pointed to as evidence of this was the Middle Ages. So he said that ours the 19th century, ours is the Age of Umber. Theirs was the age of gold. So he saw in the preserved interiors of churches the stained glass windows and the illuminated manuscripts. But the colours of the Middle Ages were in fact this very rich period, which the artists of his day could draw on in their work. And I think a really extraordinary example of it is this illuminated manuscript page by a Scottish artist called Phoebe Traquair.

 So she was a contemporary artist working in around the end of the 19th century, in fact. But she was interested in reviving medieval techniques. So what we have here is two pages of an illuminated manuscripts of the classic kind of medieval painted book, but of her design and what she's illuminating or illustrating is a poem by another contemporary female Victorian poet, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, and her volume, which is called sonnets from the Portuguese.

 And in fact, Elizabeth Barrett Browning herself was almost kind of masquerading that she was writing this book of historical poetry that she had translated from Portuguese. But in fact, what it is, is actually quite racy, quite romantic stuff about her relationship with her husband, Robert Browning, who was also another very famous poet of the period. So the sonnet that we've illustrated here describes Elizabeth and Robert's first kiss, and so Traquair has illustrated it with this lovely picture of a young woman and a young boy embracing, kissing underneath this amazing rainbow.

 And she's done this using the medieval technique of gesso. So this gold painting on the page that's got this wonderful sort of luminous quality. And the page itself is vellum. So animal skin into another medieval technique that she's reviving. So it's got this wonderful range of colours inspired by the rainbow all around it, but really embracing the techniques and even the writing style, the kind of calligraphy of the medieval period as well. 

So something very modern mixed with something very old and historical. It's wonderful that we're harking back to this medieval historic technique and the fact that we're experiencing it again, it's wonderful. I mean, this and shrouding within this gorgeous gold frame really jumps out at you. It's so colourful, so vibrant. So I can see why it's one of your favourite objects, but also why it is in the exhibition.

And now our conversation turns to Saint Mary's Church, which received a makeover in the 19th century. It received a new cloak and replacement glass and the old window frames, and in 1875 a full program of restoration took place. This included removing the west gallery, replacing the pews, painting walls and the rood screen, and new windows in the chancel, where we can spot the handiwork of some well-known stained glass specialists such as Charles Emma Kemp.

His distinctive signature yellow wheatsheaf motif can be found at the bottom left hand corner of the window. The south aisle and chapel were re roofed and a new organ was also installed. What's more, the theme of the Ten Commandments was painted onto thin metal sheets on the organ to match the Angel wall paintings of 1867 by Daniel Bell.

So I think if we travel over to Saint Mary's in Edinburgh, the Angel wall paintings by Daniel Bell, which were part of the Victorian restoration of 1867. They can also stand as a testament, perhaps, for this era of colour that you spoke of, and especially what the exhibition speaks of. What can you tell me about paintings? Yeah, absolutely.

So I think we should remember that this in the mid-19th century, this was the great moment of church decoration of revival and church decoration. So figures like John Ruskin, like William Morris, were looking to what survived of the Middle Ages. But then they were also looking in what ways that they could bring and restore many of these churches.

 So William Bell's paintings really fit into that moment of church decoration and restoration. And this also applies to many of the architects of the period, Bodley, who Bell studied with G Street, Butterfield. So there's this whole range of architects and people interested in bringing colour into church interiors. And so, of course, painting them was one way of achieving this.

You've got other churches where we see things like mosaics or 19th century stained glass, as we do in the case of Saint Mary's as well. But war painting was yet another of the ways of achieving, of bringing in colour to these spaces. So a lot of people say that bells work very much as in the Pre-Raphaelite veins of the Pre-Raphaelites, always very interested in Pre-Raphaelite.

 So in this kind of medieval period. So therefore it's got this kind of Pre-Raphaelite style to it. But of course, with this kind of religious imagery as well. So combining the kind of innovations in style and colour with those biblical stories as well, to make them kind of fresh and new for churchgoing audiences. And you speak of these biblical stories, but what would have motivated artists to to capture these within the wall paintings?

So I think older narratives were always, as always, something that artists are interested in. And particularly interesting in some of these wall paintings is the fact that they look to Old Testament biblical stories, as well as this kind of much larger piece with Christ the King at center as well. So drawing on maybe less familiar biblical narratives as well as some of the better known ones as well.

So it's all about telling stories and how the biblical past was a very colourful moment in history as well. So they were writers at the time who would go through the Bible and pick out all the references to colour and make these kind of indexes or encyclopedias all about the colours of the Bible. So this was a real topic for thinking, because there was the symbolic meanings of colour in the Bible, but also the fact that, there was kind of translations of different, colours from ancient languages into modern English.

 There were all sorts of ways into thinking about colour and its interaction with the Bible. Well, I'm very much looking forward to going and experiencing the wall paintings later on today. So thank you so much, day. Thank you. And if you would like to come to the exhibition, it is open until February 2024. Is that right? It is. Please do come.

The Dunstable Downs, part of the Chilterns Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, otherwise known as Allenby, offers some of the best views over the Vale of Aylesbury. The downs command excellent views over this entire valley and onto the surrounding hills and nearby towns. They are home to more than 200 types of wildflowers and butterflies, as well as two ancient monuments I have turned up today with my golden retriever, Lola, to see whether she can help me find some medieval rabbit warrens.

First we go for a walk. Do I have her treats? Yes. Do I have her poo bags? Yes I do, yeah. Oh, sounds like some kind of weird ASMR. Yeah. Oh, wow. It's windy to here. Thank red kite.

 Also, what I love about medieval manuscripts in the imagery is how bizarre they look through all 21st century eyes. And you can often find 15 century manuscripts showing off scenes of catching rabbits. And these rabbits are plentiful in these scenes. They're depicted also far bigger than domestic bunnies nowadays. And even as large as hunting dogs. And in the Middle Ages, rabbits were quite a lucrative investment, and they weren't native to Britain.

So the Normans reintroduced them in the 11th and 12th century and kept them in special enclosures. And the meat was a delicacy and the fur used for trimming clothes, making each rabbit more valuable than a workman's daily wage. There were warriors who were employed to guard the rabbit warrens and feed the rabbits, and they bought burrows. They would ward off potential predators and poachers.

 And today we can see these large warrens in the Dunstable Downs, and I'm standing right next to one. They are also known as pillow mounds, and these heaps of earth would have possessed multiple well ventilated chambers where rabbits mate, give birth, and raise their families. And these pillow like mounds are often constructed in an oblong shape and sometimes connected with each other using stone lined tunnels and to keep the rabbits inside. 

A field of penny mounds would be surrounded by a moat or ditch filled with water. A fence then provides protection against predators, and many warrens include a lodge and watchtower where the Warren resides. So I need to try and find something in the ground that replicates this. And we've spotted a chalk line and the remnants of where some medieval rabbit would have lived. 

But why else is this area connect to our episode's theme? Well, this area also boasts a Bronze Age cemetery, which contains several circular burial mounds. An excavated skeleton can be found at Luton Museum that was discovered in 1848 by a gentleman named William Cunnington, with evidence of cremation and grave goods including a flint arrowhead, beads made from bird bone and ivory pin bracelet fragment, and an amber necklace.

The Victorians faced one of the greatest paradigm shifts in history. They were having revelations about time and their relationship with the earth and natural history provided by the new sciences of geology and archeology took them by storm. They were inundated with fossils. Captivated by skeletal remains, Potts has artifacts and traces that served at once as relics from the past, objects in the present that could mark a time's passage. 

So why do you love the National Trust shop so much? I just really like them. And of course, we couldn't leave until we had satisfied the urge to visit the National Trust shop, where I found something unexpectedly fitting for this episode. We could get a chocolate lolly frog and then just swirl it in the. Because that was how chocolate hot chocolate was made in the 19th century.

Apparently just not with chocolate frogs, but they would just get chocolate chocolate and put it in it so we could get a few of those. Yeah. Oh my God. They also have also it works because it's an animal theme. Oh, that works, isn't it? Should I get us all one of those. We jump in the car with our chocolate treats and make our way to the church. 

Although, spoiler alert, I haven't brought Lola, my golden retriever, and instead have given her to my unsuspecting partner to take her home. Although her presence has been helpful for the episode, as today we will be touching upon an animal theme, hence the title. You may have guessed Fantastical Beasts and Where to Find Them. Well, we're heading to Saint Mary's Church in Edelsborough to find out more.

 Starting routes are you six to help? Let's see how to Dunstable Road, then turn left. Oh! Oh, wow, there's a chalk lion. Can you see it? Yeah. Gosh, I can't believe that's caught. It's so vibrant. Oh that's lovely. Oh we going into spirit now. Yeah. So we're literally coming to that. Oh my gosh it's really impressive. The destination is on your right as you six to.

Yep it's here I think it's here. Arrived. Yep. This is the green gate they were on about the it's rugged walls are built of great Houghton House stone quarried about two miles away to the north east of Edelsborough. This soft stone weathered badly and has been patched in places with flint, brick and Roman cement, bold buttress and all in battles.

 This venerable building has a fortress like appearance and its massive western tower with very distinctive pegs. Belfry windows are set very well apart. It has a staircase turret in the southwestern corner, which rises above the parapet to a height of 70ft. Saint Mary's very much shares its Norman identity with Dunstable Downs. We know there was a church as Headless Bretton, Norman Times and Gilbert of Ghent, who, if you don't know, was the nephew of William the Conqueror.

He gave the right to appointed priests to the monks at Bard, which is in Lincolnshire, and this right passed in 1392 to the Carthusian monks at London Charterhouse. So after the monasteries were dissolved in the 1530s by Henry the Eighth, the patronage passed through various hands to eventually land in the brown loaves of Ashridge, who are residing at this point in Little Godstone in Hertfordshire, which is around five miles to the southeast, and the earliest part of the present church date from the late 1200s.

So I'm walking around the church on the exterior and it's very windy, and I'm trying not to get too mesmerized by the views. They are absolutely beautiful. All of these very gorgeous fields. They're just spanning for miles and miles and all this greenery, and I can see some livestock in the corner and it's just it's just wonderful. I can't really describe it into words. 

It's so beautiful. But I'm going to turn my attention to the church, which is equally beautiful. And the exterior of Saint Mary's is covered with this Perpendicular Gothic style architecture, which is from the 1400s, and it gives it much of its present appearance and character. So the craftsman who raised the walls and reroof the church crowned them in embattled parapets and added two porches on either side.

And like most medieval churches, we see styles of many different periods displayed in Saint Mary's. So they are generations of people from a variety of different Christian traditions that have altered in large and beautified it, leaving their mark upon it. And I mean, with this sunlight shining upon this limestone, it is absolutely fresh. It's beautiful, it's reflective. It's a ready to stand as a landmark in this whole area.

 It really is the church upon the hill. Hello, hello. It's beautiful. I don't know why. I think it's huge and really beautiful. How are you? I'm fine. Happy to see you. Thank you for coming. This all right. Now it's really fun. And this is your son. And this is Kit. Natasha Podro is interpretation and digital content producer for the Ashmolean Museum, and has also been working on their recent exhibition, Colour Revolution.

You may recognise her surname, her father being the well-known art historian and philosopher Michael Podo. Natasha is tall with brown wavy hair and has a glowing smile. Her 13 year old son Kit has inherited not only Natasha's height but also her charisma and perception, something that I notice as we greet each other outside the north side of Saint Mary's on this gloriously bright summer's day. 

Great. Well, should we go find the key? Yes, please. Leigh-Anne, are you going to give us some clues for the key so we can get inside the church? Don't tell me I have to find anything. Yeah, just up the parapets. No, it's it's hidden. I'm sure listeners will appreciate that for security reasons, we can't explicit tell you where you can find the church key.

But needless to say, I witnessed great mother and son team work, and the key is eventually found hidden away in a rather peculiar place. Welcome to the toilet. Toilet? The toilet. let's hope we don't have to fish around in that. Okay. Thank you. I'm still trying to work out how we switch the lights on, so when we go back inside, I'm going to read the instructions again because I can't remember.

This is also the prime area to introduce our second live creature of the episode. So I was a bit concerned about going to the toilet in here, because there's a really big spider at the top and I really do not like spiders. I oh yeah, oh, the second look, I mean, there's quite a few big ones. Yeah. And I'm a bit squeamish and a bit of a coward, so I'll probably wait.

Shall we go to the pub later? Now, Kit has very heroically stumbled through the spiders to find the church key. We are now ready to venture inside this magnificent building that Natasha accurately describes as very Northanger Abbey. The first of Austin's novels, completed in full in 1803 and like her main character, the young Catherine Morland, we are also spending a night in a Gothic styled fortress.

 Oh, I'm just I'm completely underdressed. I feel like I should be in a Jane Austen style frock. Yes, she will say this and say, where is my trouble from? Yes. Where's my colour? On me? Yeah. Yes. Kiss. Well, and also, I'm looking for a bond with Mr. Darcy.

 After you guys. Thank. Oh. Who didn't? Yes. I'll grab my bags. It is beautiful. Isn't it? Absolutely beautiful that colour. I'm just also seeing churches with wall paintings. I mean, they're very, very Victorian wall paintings, but they've at it. So now you're right. So can you sort of get a mix of medieval in and Victorian and you will sort of mesh together.

 Yeah. It's really grand and in this sort of evening or early evening light, dazzling and sort of flowing in through these stained glass windows beside it, it's a good time to arrive because you just get the light coming through that those stained glass, those stained glass windows are absolutely beautiful. The Victorians absolutely love stained glass. Creation of stained glass really takes off in the 19th century in a way that it hasn't since the Middle Ages, and the impetus seems to have come from the international Exhibition of 1862.

So everybody knows about the exhibition of 1851. Crystal Palace is built specially for the 1862 exhibition. Is much less well known, and it's an exhibition that's all about colour, and it's all about new technologies and new inventions and new theories about seeing colour. But it also has lots of examples of sort of medieval themed artifacts and designs, because the Victorians love Pre-Raphaelites, particularly love all things medieval, and the architect William Burgess was commissioned by the Ecclesia Buckley's Theological Society to design this medieval court for the middle of the 1862 exhibition.

 And it has a huge influence. Everybody absolutely loves it. There are 6 million visitors from around the world to come to this exhibition, so it really has an impact on people's taste. That's really interesting that you just spoken about Burgess, and obviously he has this admiration for the 13th century and specifically French Gothic, which he applies to, to Chalice Cathedral.

Private commissions and all of these, big commissions that he's getting at the time. And he was also a great supporter of the new firm, Morris, Marshall, Faulkner and Company. And those works were also displayed at the 1862 International Exhibition. Yeah. So this is Morris, as in William Morris, who then just set up his own company, along with the sort of Pre-Raphaelite.

 Well, they're not the original Brotherhood, but the Oxford followers of the of the Pre-Raphaelite movement. And he's a great friend of Burne-Jones. And Morris sets up his his furniture and decorative arts company in order to make things, you know, as they would have been made using old techniques, using old colours, using, to reviving stained glass techniques, but also furniture making techniques, weaving techniques and he loves all things, it all things medieval. And I love that this is something that you've, you've obviously been working very closely with, with the Ashmolean and new exhibition that is going to be, launching soon. And of course, I suppose you work a lot with or you've been working a lot with these grand figures or these very prominent figures within this period.

 But there's also the firms workmen who we need sort of, I suppose, think about and pay homage to, because it's them. It's these people who are working these factories who are reviving medieval stained glass techniques in which the painting of details of sort of line and shadow and brown or black oxides were were fired into these translucent coloured glass.

 And we can see them here, which I find absolutely stunning. We can see both a mix of these stories that being depicted, but also, these sort of green, dazzling light which is coming through some of these other stained glass windows. I think now it's time to find some of these stories. So it's really interesting that you're drawn to stained glass windows, and I would like to try and find a unique stained glass window dedicated to Saint James the Great.

 And this is supposedly in the northwestern corner of the church. So that's trying to there. I don't know which way around. I guess this is the moment when I give out some clues. So this Tasha and her son Kit can find this a unique stained glass window dedicated to Saint James the Great in the northwestern corner of the church.

 They are specifically looking for certain design symbols that represent him as a medieval pilgrim, and these traditional markers of a medieval pilgrim would usually include a staff, a pouch, a scallop shell often found on their hats, and a drinking gourd. Ooh, getting a bit cold down there. Kids found it. Hey, you might miss it, well done.

 Yeah, we haven't found that. Oh, look. It's tiny. It's very sweet. I want to see it. This would be my corner. Oh, it's going to be. It's a very peaceful corner. It was fantastic. Just deep, deep red flag cloak. So it's about that gorgeous light green as well, isn't it? It's really vibrant and it's a somehow more colourful than the rest of the.

Maybe because the light's more focused. Yeah, but I love the colours. So the, the the pre wraps, the Victorians looked at medieval, medieval illuminated manuscripts which had kept their colour books, anything on the walls of churches or anything outdoors. The colour faded under the light. And the wonderful thing about the manuscripts as you open them up and all these rich colours would be they're still really, really kind of deep and saturated and stained glass.

 You can get that kind of intensity of colour. They are amazing. so he hasn't he hasn't got all of his attributes. He's got a hat. and he's got the scallop shell, and he's got a staff with a hook, but there's nothing actually hanging on it. He hasn't got his gourd or or some pouch hanging on it.

 It is just a it's just a staffer carrying this stuff. yeah. Water bottle and you and you in your pocket. And he. Saint James, he's. I don't know if you've heard of the the, Santiago de Compostela. It's a kind of walk in Spain. And people still do it. Pilgrims still do it. But it's a it's a walk that people have done for centuries, ending up at the shrine of Saint Santiago at Saint James.

And you can do it from France, or you can do it from different places in Spain. You may be wondering why we are looking for windows. Well, these are very special windows and of historic significance. The next one especially fits with our theme of today by being a beautiful Arts and Crafts style window depicting the Nativity scene. It celebrates the work of two women and it is dedicated to sculptor and painter Helen Fraser Rock and was designed and created by stained glass artist Margaret Edith Aldrich Rope.

There is no clear reason why Helen chose to live in this area, but possibly she was seeking the peace and the solitude, the tranquility of the local countryside. When Helen died tragically in a rose accident in 1932. She was buried in this very churchyard in Edinburgh. Her monument is a fine Celtic cross decorated with the Celtic knot, a decorative motif used by the Arts and Crafts movement and also featured in her memorial window.

It's a very important window. It's the Kemp window on the south wall. So we're, we're we're at the north west point of the church now. And this is on the south wall. And the window depicts Saint Peter, Saint Nicholas the Virgin and Child in a nativity scene with visiting kings and William of Wainfleet. And it's made in around 1898, dedicated to the Reverend Augustus Frederick Birch. 

And he was the vicar of the time. Around the 1867 restoration of the church, and the necessity and the identity, which is a very important theme, to be included. It's very. Absolutely. There we go, sheep. Well done. Sheep and a baby. Bridie and Charles Edward Kemp created it using silver stain on clay, glass and a small golden wheatsheaf, which is his trademark, appearing in the lower left hand corner.

That's what we need to try and find wonderful. So now can you find his trademark bunch of wheat? And, I find it. Yeah. Very well. It's very small. He's really kind of discreet. It's a really discreet little signature. It is little signature emblem. it's lovely. And it is gold, isn't it? And I think the golden elements really come out.

  suppose this the age of gilding, gilding, everything. And increasing it with gold. Everything was purple and then everything was gold. Yeah, yeah. And it's so the golden keys. And what's amazing actually, is the cloth of gold here. He's used a slightly kind of darker yellow to create the effect of, of a coat of cloth of gold.

 And it works beautifully. It's very fragmented, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And always looking down in the bottom left in the nativity scene. You can. I love the way he's done the stable wool. And it's always, like, broken. And you're looking through a hole in the stable wool which although it's stylistically it's it's quite modern in a well fix for the Victorians.

And that is a trope that is used back in Renaissance art. You have these broken buildings which signify the old order, and then Christianity comes and replaces it as the new order. So you quite often get sort of broken architecture, and then this beautiful, pristine, decorated new architecture around it. Oh, beautiful. So this sort of showing that they're enhancing this.

Yes, yes. Because it's the end of. Yeah, exactly. It's the end of the old world. And the New Testament is the beginning of the new of the New World. Pretty well done. Well, I think you both deserve a big cup of tea now. I think we do. yeah. Charles Emma Kemp was arguably one of the most influential stained glass window designers of the Victorian period.

His studios produce over 4000 windows and designs for altars, furnishings, lich gates and memorials that help to define a later 19th century Anglican style. His patron even extended to the royal family and the wealthy Beaumont of society. Kent windows can be found in other churches, including Saint Lawrence, Broughton and Milton Keynes.

So as we're making tea, I'd like to introduce you to our beautiful breakfast for the morning, which is has been delivered in this lovely little hamper. Hamper? You see, I mean, Jane Austen all over again. All over again. Do you know I love it? I wish I'd dressed up each guest each week has, like, a new literary reference.

 So now last week it was Wuthering Heights, and this week it's Jane Austen. So that will be the theme of our so lovely, so nice. We've got biscuits, we've got pastries, we've got jam, some fruit bread. Oh yes of course. Yes. Did you want some. We've got two types of biscuits. We have eight slip biscuits or shortbread. You want those ones.

 And here we are. Oh he's got some milk whilst they're all relaxing with a cup of tea. Let's look to our angelic surroundings. You may recall my conversation with Doctor Maddie Hewitson at the beginning of this episode, when we discussed Daniel Bell's wall paintings heavily featuring angels, and that's a part of the Victorian restoration of 1867. There were all sorts of ways in to thinking about colour and its interaction with the Bible.

 And I mean, when we experience these wall paintings today, they're very faded, which is such a shame. But what would the historical experience have been when you walked into these church spaces? Absolutely. So I think one of the in reviving these techniques, unfortunately, Bell and others didn't always get it right. So that's why you do get a lot of deer deterioration in these churches.

 But at the time it would have been, I think, a really sensational and overwhelming experience to come in for worship and to be confronted by these beautiful colours on the wall. And it is all about inspiring sensation, emotions. So as John Ruskin said, colour was a gift from God. After speaking to Maddie, I started to ponder why are angels so often depicted in these wall frescoes?

 We have many examples of other churches, but also the wealthy, commissioning this sort of iconography that is dwelling on these medieval connections. After the original Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood disbanded the new circles to forms around around William Morris and Burne-Jones, who met at Oxford, and they loved Keats and Tennyson, particularly Tennyson poems that are set in the medieval past. But, but they also read a lot of genuinely medieval, writers.

 So they, they read Dante and Chaucer and, particularly Thomas Malory, who the author who writes about King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table. And in 1857, actually, Rossetti gathers a group of artists, including Morrison, Burne-Jones, to work with him on a series of murals for the Oxford Union, and they choose scenes from Malory of Sir Lancelot seeking the Holy Grail and surrounded by angels.

Unfortunately they they haven't really got the technique of fresco painting down, so they're trying to be as authentic as possible in that technique, but they paint directly onto the whitewashed brick and immediately, the paint starts to fall off. So it deteriorates really, really badly. I'm sure to wonderful at the time, but it's now almost all gone.

 So what we do have in the Ashmolean, tucked away at the original designs, so we can see possibly what it did look like, but yet, sadly, sadly, they needed to work on that one. Yeah. So it's not just reviving this, this technique of fresco wall painting of the medieval period, but really paying attention to the pigments that they're using to make sure that iconography and this paint work is going to last for generations to come.

And we know there's quite a lot of concern around this late Victorian period about how artists were selecting their materials. And you've just mentioned it there, that we have an example where they didn't pay that much attention. Are there any other examples are already prominent figures within this period. So you can think of who were really concerned with with this?

Well, both Morris and Ruskin, but absolutely fixated on using natural pigments and recreating, the pigments that had been used by medieval and Renaissance artists. And they laboriously made their own, which was awful, like a huge effort in a day where you can finally, for the first time, artists can just go out and buy paint in tubes. I mean, their lives are.

 Everybody else who's using these modern paints is their lives are made much easier and the colours look exactly the same. It's not just reviving this technique of fresco wall painting of the medieval period, but paying attention to the pigments that they're using to make sure that iconography and paint work is going to last. We know there's quite a lot of concern around this late Victorian period about how artists were selecting their materials.

 Doctor Tea Ghigo has been analyzing pigments from John Ruskin's artworks, particularly his very gorgeous and colourful King Fisher watercolour. And she's been using this very sophisticated X-ray fluorescence technology to examine the chemical elements within the pigments he was painting with. Let's Cut to Tear to learn more about the science behind Victorian pigments. My name is Tea Ghigo and I'm a research heritage scientist at the Ashmolean.

I first refer to archival research, and I serve at all the texts that Ruskin published during his life to collect his thoughts about colour and pigments. Then I started working in a scientific lab, and I use a different instrument to investigate what Ruskin's colours were made of. One of the main instruments I use for this investigation is called X-ray fluorescence spectrometer.

And what it does, it scans the surface of a painting and collect a response from all the chemical elements that make up colours. From that information, I can then infer what pigments Ruskin's use from those that were available on the 19th-century market. It was very interesting to observe that Ruskin combine the most durable synthetic industrial pigments with the most durable traditional of pigments in order to paint his watercolours.

 It is interesting because, despite his rejection for industrialization, Ruskin very much embraced modernity and leveraged it in order to produce durable artworks.

While cherishing, after a full day of traveling and exploring, we are ravenous and pop down the road to the local pub around a ten minute drive away. The Travelers Rest. Since 1851, this pub has provided a place for travelers to rest and recuperate in Edelsborough. This pub is most likely the result of the 18th century stagecoach, which heralded essentially the rise of coaching inns that were established on strategic routes up and down and across the country.

 Oh yeah. Wow. I'm glad I went with this now because you don't have to make, like, too many choices. Yeah, yeah. Now, feeling like a very contented traveler, we wander back to our camp beds at Saint Mary's in search for rest and one last treasure hunt in our Gothic fortress. Do you want to help me put the fairy lights on?

Kit, we are now sitting on our camp beds in the chancel and surrounded by misery cords, which are warping and coming to life in this liminal time of the evening, these twinkly lights casting strange shadows. But why is this happening? Well, I have set kit a task that's for the misericordia, otherwise known as Mercy Seat. That's a better name.

And this is the stands with his long serves. He could manage. You could lean back against the seat. So they were. That's why the mercy seat is to help you, to give you mercy. So I want you to. You can. You can take my phone if you want. Fair. Okay. You've got one. and I want you to try and find as many beasts and fantastical animals and strange beings as possible. 

So can I call out? Yes. Have a go. Yes. Please do. Oh, that's why we're here. Oh, look, he's an owl. Beautiful owls like Hedwig.

 And the very, very weird. Something between a oh, yeah. Monkey and a he looks a he looks a bit like a monkey with this stuff. Here. There's dragons and eagles as mole. Look, there's a that's good. That's a is that a goat? That's a goat or hairy man. No that's a good I, that's this. He's got horns, ears and then horns.

Yeah. Yeah. You know you're right. Fantastic beasts such as these were often inspired by medieval beast theories. In the Middle Ages, they commonly appeared in pieces alongside real animals like eagles, lions, badgers and elephants. These magical animals have not faded from the literary imagination, and they appear frequently in popular culture today. So you may be very familiar with the Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, Rowling's temporary bestiary.

The fictional author Newt Scamander writes the following, and this is dramatized by actor Annemarie Ward. Astounding. Though it may seem to many wizards, muggles, non-magical folk have not always been ignorant of the magical and monstrous creatures that we have worked so long and hard to hide a glance through muggle art and literature of the Middle Ages reveals that many of the creatures they now believe to be imaginary, they're known to be real the dragon, the griffin, the unicorn, the Phoenix, the centaur.

These and more are represented in the works of that period, though usually with almost comical in exactitude. If we go back to the dragon, where's the dragon? That looks like something you could watch in Harry Potter, doesn't it? Does it really does. Oh, we've always love to tell a story about a dragon. So Beowulf is one of the most famous kind of stories in English, and it's about Beowulf slaying the dragon when he comes to England, and he kills the monster that lives at the bottom.

 He swims down and kills the monster at the bottom of the swamp. But then the villagers are all still in trouble because his aunt lives. The monster's aunt, who is a witch, lives down there, and he swims down there and kills that. And then he goes off, kills the dragon. Poor people. Good for him. Oh, that is such a gruesome tale that actually before bears, it's probably a bit scary, but it was frightened by these bestial animals.

But the dragon is definitely my favorite. And I think Beowulf is, you know, when Tolkien writes about Smaug, he definitely draws a lot from the dragon. Yeah, Smaug is the dragon. And all this talk of fire breathing beasts reminds me of a portly in manuscript where there is also reference or advice, depending on how you look at it, on how we can identify a dragon. 

So this comes from Bodley 76 for the dragon is larger than all the rest of the serpent, and then all the other animals in the world. It has a crest, a small mouth, and narrow nostrils through which it breathes, and it puts out its tongue. Its strength is not in its teeth but its tail, and it harms more by blows than by force of impacts.

 And then it also gives some great advice next, which is essentially never tickle a sleeping dragon in Latin.

And just before turning in for the night and jumping into our sleeping bags, we ponder upon this incredible atmospheric experience with a hot mug of hot chocolate made with a Victorian twist, and our Victorian predecessors definitely knew how to do this. They witnessed the massive rise of cocoa as one of the preferred hot beverages of the masses, and they may have enjoyed a steaming cup in a temperance inspired cocoa house, for instance.

Although today we're making it in our own little church here. Go put your hands in the bag and see what you find. This is a large spider and a large chunk of chocolate at night. He's been there for brand new. Oh, it's. What is it? It's. It's isosceles. But they've got rabbit. They've got creatures. Oh there's more. They've got creatures on them.

But the rabbit. Oh, no. Oh, oh, oh. Just like the Sarah. Oh, so early today we managed to find chocolate lollies in the National Trust to down shop with animals on them. So let's see the other side. We have got an owl. It's the quiet determination of everyone to. See, he's lived in pretty good, actually. See that I love sanctuary.

Wow. Yeah. Pure chocolate. They started something, right? Yeah. See, I think what I should probably should. I was bring it camping, guys. And then we could heat heated milk. Oh, that was a nice. But that's. There's so much chocolate in this. It's pretty darn good. And cheap is catching. Say, it's very good for you. Victorians used to prescribe it as, for all sorts of ailments.

I mean, it cured. According to the Victorians, it cure. Absolutely. Pretty much anything. I think it was. It was. I have a list. Hang on. It was said to cure stomach problems, infections, poor liver fatigue. I definitely need that. Gout. Not so much dysentery, fevers, rashes, chest pain, kidney issues, smallpox, growing hair and syphilis. Syphilis. There you go.

I'm nothing I can have as much as I want. No. but nice try. But. But you say that. I mean, if you. There were lots of Victorian cure all. So there was some kind of really brutal sounding cold water cures. If you went to Great Malvern, you were kind of given these pretty much like torture, water kills or really foul tasting kind of quack medicines that also cured everything.

If the option was to be cured by chocolate, I know which doctor I'd go to. I mean, it must have been an absolute gold mine. Why would you not go to the doctor that sold you chocolate? Absolutely. I bet he had many female clients. Yeah. 

Good night everyone. I love sweet time. You will. Comfy? Yeah. Waking up in Saint Mary's is very atmospheric. We have been sleeping in the chancel. So the oldest part of the church building, which dates back to the 13th century. Our camp beds are arranged symmetrically and surrounded by these fantastical 15th century carved seats. The misericordia. It's around six am when I wake up to bright sunlight drifting in through Kent's stained glass window, there is a kaleidoscope of vibrant colours shimmering across the limestone and bouncing off the elaborately painted pipes of the organ.

It's turquoise, red and gold pipes, adding to the grandeur of this space. As I slowly creep out of the chancel, I walk down the aisle in the name and exit through the north aisle. Wooden door. I have been looking forward to my early morning experience at Saint Mary's, and especially looking forward to looking out across these fields from this high position on the hill.

It is already bathed in this warm summer light, and I can hear the local livestock and orchestra of birds as I go outside. But before I return to the grade, I want to ponder upon the closing of this church and its history. And there is a rather dramatic event in this church's history. So on the 20th of March, 1824, the spire was struck by light, which results in a destructive fire which burned for 12 hours straight, fueled by molten lead.

It was only skillful firefighting which saved the church during this dreadful event, and arguably the reason for its demise. The church was eventually closed in 1975, causing the parish of Middlesboro to join with massive heat and Bray. Due to its important interior decoration, it became a new resting with the Churches Conservation Trust, shortly after. Now come on, let's head back inside and get the verdict from our fellow champers.

If there's anyone else I should have taken, like, please, I don't forget I went in my suitcase and pastries. And how did you both find champing? Yeah, it was brilliant. It was sort of almost disappointingly not spooky, wouldn't you say? That wasn't spooky? It was nice. It was quite cozy, actually. Yeah, it was a little fairy lights and.

And the electric candles on. It was really. It was really cozy. I think it's the highest roof I've ever slept under. And what was the best? It actually was waking up in the morning to that huge stained glass window that was that was completely lovely.

 If you would like to make some memories, why not give camping a try? For everything you need to know about jumping, please visit: https://champing.co.uk/ 

Nights in the Nave has been written and produced by me: Victoria Jenner. My guests have been Natasha Podro and her son, Kit, and special thanks goes to: Fiona Silk who runs ‘Champing’, our champing assistants and Dr Madeline Hewitson and Dr Tea Ghigo from the Ashmolean Museum, University of Oxford. Sound recording was managed by Leigh-Anne Beattie. Music by Nick Varey and design by George Allen. 

Come to a sleepover at our place. This is a Churches Conservation Trust podcast.

Follow our host, Victoria Jenner, on instagram: @victoriajenner_history